Visit andysleather.com

the Scout Rifle Forum sponsor!

Poll

Savage 1920 Poll - What do ya'll think?

Go "Whole Hog" (shorten & lighten barrel, install new iron sights, replace recoil pad, refinish stock, refinish metal)
11 (68.8%)
Replace recoil pad and use it as is.
5 (31.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: February 08, 2018, 11:23:28 AM

Author Topic: CB's Observations  (Read 756541 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Cousin Bongo

  • Moderator
  • JAFO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6269
    • View Profile
Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1305 on: June 09, 2026, 03:24:40 PM »
CB, I’ve always wondered about the red dot and defensive guns.

Here’s my rationale-

I’ve been using red dot optics for decades now.  I even use them on dangerous game rifles.

I’ve had them go wonky at times- from dirt getting on the lens, dust getting on the diode, strange wandering zeros… with competition shooting, I’ve had strange things happen probably once every other year… now, I’m not saying the same doesn’t occur with iron sights as well (because it does)- but the commentary seems to be that RDS’s are every bit as good as irons for reliability nowdays.

My take is that optics only are good for folks who maintain their gear and shoot somewhat regularly.

I’ve seen way too many folks at matches sit and spend multiple seconds hunting for their dot… we know what happens with that in a fight.

When folks start saying things like get a micro nine for CCW purposes with an optic, I think it should be stated that folks should TRY a micro nine with optic.  Some folks can’t manage them, and those are the folks who read experts and never try them- heck, most CCW folks I hear about buy a box of 20 rounds of defensive ammo, and a box of FMJ, shoot the FMJ at their course/certification, load the expensive stuff and never shoot the gun other than that.

Personally, I prefer cowitness sights as you have a backup there at that point for serious use.

Thoughts?

Putting a red dot on a pistol does present a learning curve and it also takes a fair amount of practice reps and consistent presentations for the transition. If one is having to hunt for the red dot, then that person has not put enough time and effort into training and practice. Same goes for iron sights too, of course. People who don't practice as you described above, should not be carrying concealed, IMO. It's irresponsible at best. Red dots are lots easier to hit with at distance than irons without giving anything up close in. Red dots allow more situational awareness, that's for sure. I agree with Ken Hackathorn for the most part, but I also agree with John Correia. When set up properly, the red dot should "co-witness" with irons, so should the dot go down virtually no time should be lost making the transition from dot to irons for anyone who has practice enough to be responsibly carrying concealed. Going from red dot back to irons is pretty much seamless for most people who already know how to shoot irons. It's the transition from irons to red dot that takes effort - red dots require consistent presentation so one is not hunting for the dot and consistency makes us better shooters. The front sight on irons can usually be seen and adjusted for, even with a crappy presentation, so making presentation corrections seems easier. A red dot forces you to be consistent so you don't have to hunt for the dot. Consistency will make you faster and more accurate. Speed and accuracy usually win a defensive shooting.

John at Active Self Protection did a most excellent video about all this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2jm2DZGA4w

The above video is definitely worth the 19 minute watch.

The goal of shooting is hitting and a red dot makes hitting lots easier for most people. Being able to focus entirely on the threat (with the little red dot superimposed on it) instead of having to transition back & forth from the front sight to the target to the front sight to the target, etc. gives the red dot a very real advantage. At distance - say, over 20 yards - the red dot absolutely dominates. ASP has found that the first person to get an anatomically significant hit in a gunfight wins 99.9% of the time, no matter the cartridge used. DVC! ...with speed (Celeritas) and accuracy (Diligentia) being more important than power (Vis) as tens of thousands of actual shootings have proven thanks to today's badge cams, cell phones, and security cameras. "Nobody likes being shot, not even with a .22..." (but I still consider the 9mm the minimum for me...the .380 in a pinch BUT only if loaded with Lehigh Xtreme Defense or Penetrator bullets).

CB
« Last Edit: June 10, 2026, 01:46:10 PM by Cousin Bongo »
You have to be alive to spend it.
Knew Jeff Cooper well; Orange Gunsite graduate; Hawkeye “Scharfschützenabzeichen” badge holder; member Gunsite African Rifles; member - Gun Owners Of America; (formerly a NRA Benefactor Member); WPPS; USMC.

Cousin Bongo

  • Moderator
  • JAFO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6269
    • View Profile
Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1306 on: July 10, 2026, 04:23:42 PM »
So...John at Active Self Protection has now analysed over 50,000 videos of actual defensive shootings (and others) - usually surveillence video and badge cams.

What this has shown is:

1) most shootings take place at about 3 to 15 or 20 yards, with 25 or 30 yards not being out of the realm of possibility,

2) your draw to first hit needs to be under 1.5 seconds with under 1.0 second being the goal; that's from the go signal to hit,

3) in "civilian" shootings - i.e. non police shootings - they have not seen a single instance where a reload in a civilian gunfight mattered / would have made a difference. Zero out of tens of thousands. With police, it's a whole different story and reloads can, have, and do make a difference. Nobody is saying to not learn how to properly work reloads - you could be that 1 in 60,000. More and more criminals today are working in packs...

4) in many cases, pepper spay may have stopped the attack/escalation. To paraphrase Chuck Haggard "You want something between a harsh word and a gun." 

CB
« Last Edit: July 23, 2026, 02:16:38 PM by Cousin Bongo »
You have to be alive to spend it.
Knew Jeff Cooper well; Orange Gunsite graduate; Hawkeye “Scharfschützenabzeichen” badge holder; member Gunsite African Rifles; member - Gun Owners Of America; (formerly a NRA Benefactor Member); WPPS; USMC.

Cousin Bongo

  • Moderator
  • JAFO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6269
    • View Profile
Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1307 on: September 25, 2026, 09:23:38 AM »
Welp, I found something I didn’t know I needed or wanted: https://resources.mossberg.com/journal/mossberg-adds-590r-and-590rm-pump-action-shotguns-with-chisel-machining-folding-stock-mounts

Don’t know for what just yet…

CB
You have to be alive to spend it.
Knew Jeff Cooper well; Orange Gunsite graduate; Hawkeye “Scharfschützenabzeichen” badge holder; member Gunsite African Rifles; member - Gun Owners Of America; (formerly a NRA Benefactor Member); WPPS; USMC.

splithoof

  • Scout
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1308 on: September 25, 2026, 01:13:23 PM »
As to reloads…you bet I carry a reload.  In our area of California, criminals are now more than not operating in groups.  A very common occurrence I hear of are incidents at gas stations, parking lot robberies, car-jackings, and a host of other festivities taking place around vehicles.

Andy in NH

  • JAFO
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Just a (Ret.) Grunt
    • View Profile
Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1309 on: September 25, 2026, 07:06:43 PM »
As to reloads…you bet I carry a reload.  In our area of California, criminals are now more than not operating in groups.  A very common occurrence I hear of are incidents at gas stations, parking lot robberies, car-jackings, and a host of other festivities taking place around vehicles.
I carry a spare mag on my person and several in the vehicle.

I've noticed the same thing as you - the transitional spaces are where we are the most vulnerable and therefore need to be the most aware.
Is the boy you were proud of the man you are?

Any fool can be uncomfortable in the field.

I live vicariously through my own memories.

The Scout Rifle Forum

Re: CB's Observations
« Reply #1309 on: September 25, 2026, 07:06:43 PM »