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munchie3409
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« on: April 07, 2011, 06:03:46 AM »

Hi everyone,

I have always liked the scout concept and I have been considering buying one.  Since the basic three choices are Steyr (tough to find and expensive), Savage and Ruger...I thought I'd pick everyone's brain on the subject.  I like the Ruger a lot, but price is a big consideration since I'm not currently working.

There is a shop that has an older model Savage Scout...the one with the side magazine release.  Any issue with that magazine release?  Seems as if the newest Savage Scouts have the mag release on the bottom of the stock now.  This is what I have gathered on the two rifles...if I am mistaken, please correct me.  Most of the comments below are my opinion/personal preference.

Savage pros
price (slightly used)
precision since it's a Savage
synthetic stock, although it's a cheap stock
I have tools to swap out barrels for Savage/Stevens 200 action
slightly lighter compared to Ruger GSR

Savage con
older model/used(unknown round count)
flimsy stock (which I can swap out)
rail does not appear to be as sturdy as Ruger GSR
I don't like the sights as much as Ruger GSR
actions are not smooth (which can be resolved by shooting or sending to Kevin Rayhill)
mag system is not on par with Ruger GSR, but can be replaced with CDI mag system that uses AI/AI clones
no accutrigger, but can/will be replaced with SSS trigger or something else


Ruger pro
strong picatinny rail
light weight
nicer action
threaded for suppressor
short barrel= easier to swing
great mag system

Ruger cons
not a fan of wood/laminate stocks
flash hider that comes from the factory isn't the best-would replace
hearing groups of 1.5-2.5MOA
plastic trigger guard
price over 2x compared to the used Savage Scout

I'd love to hear from those that own both or at least have fired both rifles.  For me it's going to be used for hunting and if something bad happens rig...I already have much more precise rifles, but I'm looking for something compact and lighter if I must carry it into the woods for a long period of time.

Thanks for any input.
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bamasarge
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 06:39:24 AM »

welcome fellow new guy!

I have not handled a Savage Scout, so I cannot speak to it's pro's and con's but I do own a Ruger GSR.  I agree with some of your critique of the GSR,

not a fan either of the laminate stock but willing to give it a try
Flash hider? but no big deal
I shot a 1 moa with the Burris Scout scope  at 100 yards, with the fixed sights it opened up a bit but it's not a precision rifle.
The polymer trigger guard is a concern but will wait and see what heavy use and time does to it
The Mags are high quality but expensive, would like to have the ability to load thru the bolt opening with stripper clips or individually
Otherwise, I have no complaints its well built and and serves it's purpose as a General Purpose Carbine

A quick question you mentioned changing a number of items on the Savage to improve it, does the cost of those improvements not bring closer in line with the Ruger pricetag?  Just curious.
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munchie3409
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 07:10:03 AM »

I have two barrels for my other Savage, so if I wanted a different caliber...say .243 I could swap it out in a matter of 20 minutes.  I also have a blind magazine and a different stock that I could replace it with, so it wouldn't cost me anything.  If I wanted a light contoured barrel (I'd have to purchase a pre fit), which I would since having a varmint contour would defeat the whole scout rifle concept.

My current Savage already has a mag system, so mags would interchange with Ruger GSR or Savage Scout if/when I added the CDI mag system to the rifle.
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Flashman
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 09:15:47 PM »

I think Koch from Asgaard summed up the short comings of the Savage Scout in an old post but I will provide mine, most which are common with his.  That said, I really like my Savage.

1.  Weak bolt retaining pin--prone to breakage and renders the gun inoperable.  I experienced this.
2.  The stock is a weak link, a little too long LOP, however the trigger guard rear screw hole strips out with minimal use.  Very good ergonomics.
3.  Scope mounting bracket appears rather fragile.
4.  Magazine fit is very tempermental--usually requires fitting by an expert in order to reliably feed.  All four of my magazines required "factory fitting." 

Having owned a couple of Ruger 77mkII's I will say they share none of those shortcomings--they are robust, durable and reliable.

However, although I think the rifle is rather fragile, I like it very much.  Long before the GSR, Ed Head told me the Ruger rifles (usually Frontiers at that time) at 270 were bulletproof; the Savages consistently broke as did mine, and another, twice.
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triggertime
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 10:58:57 PM »

From Asgard Industries web page:

Quote
Three weeks in the woods produced two deer and one elk for the Asgard crew and friends.  One of the deer and the spike elk below were both taken using a 308 scout rifle loaded with 180 grain partitions.  The trip provided some much needed field experience to evaluate some of the competition's scout platforms and various accessories.  By the end though, we had to wonder if our competition had ever taken their rifles into the field: We managed to knock one front sight off, a rear sight came loose twice despite loc-tite, we broke a Ching sling (that one was our fault though), had a magazine FALL out of the rifle while in the field (we found it after some searching), and a scout scope mount came loose.  We were able to fix everything in the field, but it became rapidly apparent that not all scout rifles are created equal.


Quote
However, although I think the rifle is rather fragile, I like it very much.  Long before the GSR, Ed Head told me the Ruger rifles (usually Frontiers at that time) at 270 were bulletproof; the Savages consistently broke as did mine, and another, twice.

I have always heard that Savage bolt guns were very accurate.  Which kinda surprises me, but I have no direct experience with any
Savage except a 99C I have had since I was in grade school.

I have owned (and still own a few) rifles which will consistently group 1/2" or less at 100 yards, off a  bench. I won bench rest trophies as a kid with the 99C in L.A. County at the Technicolor Rod & Gun Club.  I have seen a few people who could
COME CLOSE to shooting up to their rifle, IN THE FIELD, but would certainly still loose if the target was shot off the bench.  My point
being, a 1/2" rifle is nice, but not necessarily better than a 2" rifle, in the field, that works every time.  (don't get the wrong idea,
I cannot even come close to shooting up to any rifle I own)

What DOES surprise me is people who like, and continue to recommend, a rifle that they know will fail or break if you
carry it or shoot it more than 50-100 rounds.

If I recall correctly, I read something from a person I hold in very high regard, that Smith & Wesson did a study at one time,
and concluded that the average firearm was fired 7 or 10 times over its life.  Now, I find that hard to believe, maybe from
the first owner, but it surely would be adopted by someone in its life that would shoot it ?  Or maybe they were right. I have
2 Marlin lever guns, a 1948 and a 1950 that the bores and insides look like new.  I also have a Marlin 36A purchased used in
1968, (I was 8, Xmas present)  I cannot tell you how many rounds I have put through that gun, has to be over 10K,  and it
still shoots like a dream.

Sorry to be so long winded.  I think I am still agonizing over that $32,000.00  Springfield 03. (agonizing over the price,
and the magazine   Shocked)

I wonder if it could be loaded from the top ? And could you use a stripper clip Huh  It did have a magazine cutoff.
If someone could make a 10 rd magazine for it, even with the trigger guard,  I might be able to warm up to it.

And there I go again............
Apologies.



 



« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 11:10:20 PM by triggertime » Logged

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ML
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 11:16:28 PM »

I wonder if it could be loaded from the top ? And could you use a stripper clip Huh  It did have a magazine cutoff.
If someone could make a 10 rd magazine for it, even with the trigger guard,  I might be able to warm up to it.

The Air Service Rifle's magazine simply replaces the "standard" 1903's floorplate. Technically it holds 20 rounds, the other five being held in the rifle's original magazline body. So, as you can see, indeed you can use a stripper clip (or, more correctly, five stripper clips!) and can load it from the top. And the magazine cuttoff works the same way too.

NOS air Service magazines go for $500 plus, but were one willing to braze, say, a BAR magazine with the feed lips removed to a 1903 floorplate with the center section cut away . . . .

--ML
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BikerRN
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 11:35:04 PM »

Hi munchie,

I looked at, and handled, both the Savage and the Ruger before going with the Ruger. Outside of the trigger it seemed a better made rifle. There's nothing wrong with the Ruger Trigger, it's just that the Accu-Trigger is that good.

I'm not concerned with being able to switch Barrels and changing calibers, as this is my only bolt action rifle at this time, although I have had a few in my past. The Ruger shoots sub MOA and feels more solid in my hands. I realize that is subjective, and your impressions may be different. I decided that the Ruger would probably have more and better accessories available in short time, being that the Savage has been on the market for a while, but never really taking off.

The Savage was less exspensive but I felt the quality of the Ruger warranted hard consideration, even at it's higher cost and in the end it won out for me.

Biker
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triggertime
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 11:40:51 PM »

There you have it sports fans.  A detachable magazine fed, bolt action rifle, with a magazine cutoff, capable of
being fed from above, WITH STRIPPER CLIPS.  $500.00 per magazine is a bit much, but in today's world, should
be much less.  Rifle receiver has a magazine cutoff.  You could single load or use stripper clips.

I think I have stated before there is nothing much new under the sun in bolt action rifles.  I have never heard of this
particular rifle before, but they got it...........85% right 100 +/_  years ago.  

Don't get me wrong, I love Ruger Rifles.  I just think if they wanted a detachable magazine fed bolt gun, close to
Scout Rifle specs,  they  dropped the ball.  (main point being detachable magazine fed) and if they insisted on a
detachable magazine fed bolt gun, with Ruger Engineers, production facilities, etc, I am sure it could come in at the
same price, or less, with options.  Options are always good. Ruger seems to lack in the option Dept.

DVC,
M







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culpeper
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2011, 09:39:30 PM »

I have the cheaper Savage.  It's accurate as advertised and seems to like being kicked around.  I've looked at the Ruger.  I didn't like the magazine.  Reminds me too much of an M-14 magazine.  It's big.  The stock is too fancy and doesn't add to the accuracy, so the price goes up.  The flash suppressor is fluff and adds to the price.  Nevertheless, the Ruger is a nice rifle.  I'm sure it operates as advertised as well as posted by others.  Savage obviously has something going in the market that resulted in a new competitor.  Not everybody is comfortable with Savage's quality control.  The Ruger naturally has a smother action and tighter tolerances overall.  In other words you get what you pay for.  Savage does have that accu-trigger patent thing going in its favor.  Thus, the Savage market is people in lower price points or just don't want to spend the extra cash for something like the Ruger.  In either case the Savage is just as accurate and vice versa.  The wonders of a free market.  You get to pick and choose.

EDIT:  I agree, triggertime.  The bolt action was improved a long time ago and by coincidence the Ruger bolt action is a Mauser type.  Improved upon decades ago.  We have several members with older Mauser actions with great results.  Great scout rifles on a budget.  It's possible Ruger is making a great pseudo-Mauser on a budget and using both names to jack up the price.  Savage will probably sell more rifles but Ruger may get the same net profit with less sales.  Something to think about.  I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger looked at all those Mauser scouts by individuals and got a bright idea.  Like the the Yugo Mauser below:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66774&d=1296435016


« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 09:55:09 PM by culpeper » Logged

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munchie3409
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2011, 09:22:20 PM »

Thanks for all of the replies....I also like to join forums that specialize in whatever information I am looking for...it's like going to a place that specializes in seafood and ordering a steak...just doesn't make any sense.

I decided to pass on the used Savage Scout for now since I already have two rifles in .308 and I didn't feel as if I needed a third.  I didn't like the Savage because it had the older side release for the magazine...I also didn't feel that the optic mount was durable/sturdy, even though I'm sure it can take some abuse.

I am probably going to just keep my eyes out on this forum.  I have a feeling I will pick up a scout rifle at some point...probably when I find a job.

I like the Steyr Scout as I am a big fan of Steyr rifles.  They make quality firearms that is for sure...it's just that their rifles are pretty expensive these days.  I had a rare Steyr "tactical" rifle with a McMillan A3 stock that I sold to a friend...great shooting rifle.
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wrc
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2011, 03:36:11 AM »

One more thing to add (didn't see it covered here). I hunted with a Savage scout rifle and didn't like the tang safety. When gripping it in snowy weather, melted snow dripped down into the safety and froze it solid. Couldn't fire the rifle until the safety thawed out. I own a Ruger Frontier now and don't have a problem with this rifle.
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Big Squeeze
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 04:54:27 PM »

Hi everyone,

I have always liked the scout concept and I have been considering buying one.  Since the basic three choices are Steyr (tough to find and expensive), Savage and Ruger...I thought I'd pick everyone's brain on the subject.  I like the Ruger a lot, but price is a big consideration since I'm not currently working.

There is a shop that has an older model Savage Scout...the one with the side magazine release.  Any issue with that magazine release?  Seems as if the newest Savage Scouts have the mag release on the bottom of the stock now.  This is what I have gathered on the two rifles...if I am mistaken, please correct me.  Most of the comments below are my opinion/personal preference.

Savage pros
price (slightly used)
precision since it's a Savage
synthetic stock, although it's a cheap stock
I have tools to swap out barrels for Savage/Stevens 200 action
slightly lighter compared to Ruger GSR

Savage con
older model/used(unknown round count)
flimsy stock (which I can swap out)
rail does not appear to be as sturdy as Ruger GSR
I don't like the sights as much as Ruger GSR
actions are not smooth (which can be resolved by shooting or sending to Kevin Rayhill)
mag system is not on par with Ruger GSR, but can be replaced with CDI mag system that uses AI/AI clones
no accutrigger, but can/will be replaced with SSS trigger or something else


Ruger pro
strong picatinny rail
light weight
nicer action
threaded for suppressor
short barrel= easier to swing
great mag system

Ruger cons
not a fan of wood/laminate stocks
flash hider that comes from the factory isn't the best-would replace
hearing groups of 1.5-2.5MOA
plastic trigger guard
price over 2x compared to the used Savage Scout

I'd love to hear from those that own both or at least have fired both rifles.  For me it's going to be used for hunting and if something bad happens rig...I already have much more precise rifles, but I'm looking for something compact and lighter if I must carry it into the woods for a long period of time.

Thanks for any input.
........................................Here are a few thoughts. First imo, the new Ruger Gunsite scout, although maybe a functional rifle, it is on the ugly side. And imo for all hunting purposes, there is no need for a 10? capacity magazine protruding down, which is an ugly extension for a bolt hunting rifle. Keep the AR looking platforms on the AR rifles.

The Savage on the other hand (handled them) with its 20" barrel, won`t really be all that much more handier, faster, nor easier to carry vs a rifle with a 22" barrel. Scout rifles w/scout scopes imo, are supposed to be fast to the target and very handy. So why not get the best of both worlds by having a scout rifle AND a conventional rifle wrapped up into one rifle?

My little handy 35.5" OAL Ruger Frontier is very accurate, is wonderful to carry, good looking, very fast `n handy, is a great truck gun, durable, reliable, and can use either a scout scope or a conventional scope as the need permits (I do both ways). If you don`t like its laminated stock it can always be changed later.

For the purposes of having an accurate, an optically versatile, durable, reliable, and very handy scout rifle and conventional rifle as well, hard to beat the Ruger Frontier.

Although discontinued by Ruger, they are still available NIB on sites like Gunbroker. The Frontiers were chambered in the 223, 243, 7/08, 300 WSM (mine), 325 WSM (probably NA), and in the stainless target grey versions, the 338 Federal and in the 358 Win.

Imo, as the best all around compromise, the Ruger Frontier is the best choice. 
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triggertime
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 05:53:39 PM »

Big Squeeze,

Very well said,  and I agree completely.

I "Frontiered" my Ruger RSI in 1994.  Put a #1 rib on it, put it in a glass stock, and scoped, with sling and butt cuff, it meets Jeff's criteria of weight. 

The only thing it doesn't have is a magazine cuttoff or the ability to use stripper clips.  But my 03A3 does.

If Ruger engineers had put a put just a little bit of time to include a rear sight, ability to use stripper clips, lost the flash hider, and
made the detachable magazine an * OPTION* they would have nailed it.  Thinking outside the box, if they had dropped
the bottom metal a tad on the standard rifle, to take 7-8 rounds, added a middle sling stud, put it in a glass stock if it did not make
the 6.6 lb. mark it would come damn close to it. 

Something about a rifle that holds 7-10 rounds in an internal magazine, no lower than the trigger guard, and takes 5 rounds stripper
clips, seems to me to be perfection.  (well, nothing is perfect in this world, but this would come closer than anything else, IMO)

I could even ditch the magazine cuttoff, if it took stripper clips.  It can still be single loaded from above.  The magazine cuttoff was
for troops who get too excited, and we are certainly not equipping troops with this rifle.  (that is a far different discussion   Undecided)  and
none of us are in charge.  (except for our own well being, and you have to find your own salvation)

Cheers,
Mark

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Big Squeeze
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2011, 06:45:26 PM »

Triggertime..........................I don`t know for sure how well the Frontier falls in line with what Cooper envisioned for a scout rifle, but one of the reasons I got my Frontier (aka mighty mouse), was its optics versatility. It can wear a conventional scope, a regular scout scope, or any red dot scope in the scout position. Hence, no need imo for any front or rear sites. And in the 300 WSM Frontier, I can go from short ranged brush work to a 500 yard elk shot if necessary on the same hunt

On a bolt rifle, I have never been a detachable mag fan. My magazine with holds 3 shells and 1 in the chamber. If I need any more than 4 with whatever I`m hunting, then I`m in trouble.

Since my 300 WSM Frontier has the velocity power capability similiar to that of a 26" barreled 30-06 AI rifle in a rifle that is only 35.5" long, then there is no need for any detachable magazine.

Max loadings using RL17 only,,,,3234 fps using a 155 "hunting" VLD,,,,3042 fps using a 168 "hunting" VLD,,,,2983 fps using a 175 "hunting" VLD,,,,2876 fps using the 190 "hunting" VLD,,,,2745 fps using a 210 "hunting" VLD.....From a 16.5" barrel?......Yup!..... And I haven`t even tried the new Hodgdon Superperformance powder yet.

It is loud, (I always wear good ear protection). It is "extreeeeeeeeemely" powerful for its size, is wonderful in the field to carry, and is definetely not for the wimpy or faint of heart.

I wonder if `ol Colonel Cooper envisioned such a powerful scout rifle as Ruger did! I doubt it.

Regardless, my Frontier fulfills my version of what a scout rifle should be, which can be summed up in four words...........Short, handy, fast and powerful.

A short, medium and long ranged combo scout/conventional rifle, that can take down any NA big game.
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triggertime
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2011, 07:11:58 PM »

Quote
Triggertime..........................I don`t know for sure how well the Frontier falls in line with what Cooper envisioned for a scout rifle, but one of the reasons I got my Frontier (aka mighty mouse), was its optics versatility. It can wear a conventional scope, a regular scout scope, or any red dot scope in the scout position. Hence, no need imo for any front or rear sites. And in the 300 WSM Frontier, I can go from short ranged brush work to a 500 yard elk shot if necessary on the same hunt

Personally, I think the Frontier came closer than the Steyer did. Ruger did not consult Jeff, but Steyer did.  As much as I love Jeff, I met him when I was 17, and he taught me how to run a 1911,  I am not impressed with the Steyer.  They could have done it right also, as could Ruger. Maybe I am too full of myself, or too critical,  but with their capability, I think they both could be better. 

Re: Iron sights:  here we will have to agree to disagree.  I have had 2 scopes go south on me. Just recreational shooting. I love scopes, because my eyes are 50 years old, and not what they used to be.  When and if (never say never)  the proverbial SHTF , and your rifle has to work, and is your constant companion, after about 3 days to 3 weeks, I think most scopes will be toast. Aimpoints have proven themselves in combat, and are much more robust than scopes,  but since I cannot see into the future,  I like a solid piece of steel as a last resort to put lead on target.

Quote
I wonder if `ol Colonel Cooper envisioned such a powerful scout rifle as Ruger did! I doubt it.

Ohh,  I think he did.  Google "Lion Scout"  or better yet,  purchase it in print.  Tons of useful information there.

Quote
Regardless, my Frontier fulfills my version of what a scout rifle should be, which can be summed up in four words...........Short, handy, fast and powerful.

Very true.

Cheers,
Mark



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