Scout Scope Mounting - The Finer Points

[Cousin Bongo]

I moved this from the members only area so everyone could have access.

This presents key information about the mounting of a Scout scope as there is definite need for knowledge in this area; especially with regards to some of the finer points.

This is an info note only and, therefore, is a locked topic (no comments). PM me if you have questions.

The Scout scope should be solidly mounted as close to the axis of the bore of the barrel as possible.  Of course, stock design and stock comb height must be taken into account for this and, ideally, the comb height should be set for the Scout scope with the scope mounted as low over the bore as possible.  The goal here is to make everything as compact, streamlined and light as we can while keeping things reliable, user friendly and durable.  Ideally, the center of the scope reticle, – i.e. the center of the “cross hairs” - the center of the aperture sight and top of the front sight (the auxiliary/reserve ghost ring sights) should all be in the same horizontal plane and vertically aligned (axially aligned).  Making things so a conventionally mounted scope (a.k.a. traditional scope) is also axially aligned with the Scout scope and ghost ring sights would be ideal.  We know this axial alignment isn’t always practical in reality, but one should strive to get all of these as close together as possible.  The objective with getting all sights axially aligned is to make it so a different cheek weld/head position is not necessary when switching back and forth between the types of sights and, as stated above, to keep the profile as compact and streamlined as possible.  Also, another key component of Scout scope mounting is to mount the scope where it is far enough forward that the aft-most part of scope is clear of the loading/ejection port - i.e. do NOT mount it to where any of part of the scope hovers over any part of the loading/ejection port! Having part of the Scout scope hovering over the loading/ejection port defeats one of the main advantages/key elements of the Scout scope.  That said, we don't want to mount the scope too forward, either, so keep this in mind when planning the installation of the Scout scope base(s). Ideally, the aft part of the scope (aft bell) should be just slightly forward of the loading/ejection port.  (Note that, excepting the Burris 2-7x32, all the variable power Scout scopes I have tried end up hovering over part of the loading/ejection port when mounted within their workable eye relief on a bolt action rifle.)  I repeat, having any part of the Scout scope hanging over the loading/ejection port is undesirable. For a variable power Scout scope, I can - and do - recommend the Burris 2-7x32 Scout scope.  This is the only variable Scout scope I will recommend at this time (2017 thru Feb 2019).  However, should you decide to go with a variable Scout scope other than the Burris, be warned part of it is probably going to end up over the loading/ejection port and this, as I just stated, is just not desirable. 

Info note:  Contrary to what many believe, stripper clip (a.k.a. charger) loading was not a reason Jeff Cooper went with the forward mounted optic.  It was a neat ancillary benefit, but stripper loading was waaaay down on the list of desirable characteristics for a Scout rifle.

Obtaining axial alignment points us towards folding/retractable iron sights to keep them out of the field of view and creating a distraction when not in use.  Having the ghost ring and front post foldable/retractable also helps with protecting the sights.  A classic pioneer Scout (early model Scout) will have only Scout scope and ghost ring sights, but please understand that the most advanced Scout rifles will have at least a folding ghost ring aperture which will allow mounting a conventional/traditional scope without the need to remove the rear sight.  Note that the earliest experimental/developmental era Scout rifles - sort of "pre-Scout Scouts" - had a fixed (non-folding) ghost ring and were set up for Scout scope only.  From what I can ascertain from my research (and Jeff Cooper telling me about it), the folding ghost ring came to be Scout rifle standard sometime in the 1980s and, by the middle 1990s, the ghost ring sight which requires removal in order to mount a conventional scope was totally discarded.  Thus, a fixed, non-folding/non-retractable ghost ring sight is not a desirable trait - especially in a new Scout rifle - and it really hasn't been since at least the 1980s.

Stock comb - please be cognizant that a stock with its comb set up for a conventionally mounted scope usually doesn't work very well with Scout scope or iron sights.  However, a stock set for a Scout scope is not too bad for use with conventional scope and ghost ring sights if done well.  Planned from the beginning, a rifle can be set up so all three types of sights are fairly close to being in alignment with each other and this close alignment means not much, if any, shifting of the cheekweld/head position is required when changing from Scout scope to irons to conventional scope and this adds to the synergy of the finished product.  When building a Scout, what I usually do is set up the rifle for Scout scope and ghost ring iron sights getting both aligned as closely as possible.  Then, I'll mount a fairly compact conventional scope, getting it as low as possible.  This is where a low-profile bolt handle designed for a conventional scope use comes into play - it allows lower scope mounting and usually gets the conventionally mounted scope pretty close to being aligned with the Scout scope and ghost ring sights.

For most action types equipped with a Scout scope, the rearmost part of the scope when the scope is installed should be clear of, and slightly forward of, the loading/ejection port. Note that the gap between the receiver and rear bell of the scope should be kept to an absolute minimum – ideally 1/16” or slightly less, but not touching.  When setting up the scope mounts, please remember that comb height must be taken into account.  This comb-to-scope relationship is often overlooked during Scout scope mount fabrication.  Also, the mounting system should allow one to quickly remove and reinstall the scope (QD scope rings), preferably without tools and without losing zero.  FWIW - My rings of choice for many years have been the Weaver Quad Lock.  These do require a screwdriver or cartridge rim or coin (or similar) to install and remove them, but I have never found this a hardship out in the field.  For a set of rings which can be removed and installed without tools, I suggest taking a look at the Weaver Lever Lock rings.

I'll mention here that the scope bases optimally should probably not be mounted directly on the barrel as problems resulting from barrel expansion and contraction are possible.  Ashley (now XS Sight Systems - XS Clifton Scout Scope Mount) marketed a spin off of Eric Ching's "Ching Ring" which is a good solution to eliminate this possibility.  Steyr also came up with a good solution with their approach on the Steyr Scout.  However, I'll mention here that, even after thousands of rounds, I've not experience any Scout scope problems on any of my rifles which have the Scout scope bases attached directly to the barrel.  Then again, I don't let the barrel heat up much during practice or field use, either.
 

Click on the picture to get a bigger view.  This example shows some of the often overlooked details for the mounting of a Scout scope.  Scope bases should be positioned to allow mounting the scope so there is minimal gap between receiver and scope and so the aft most part of the scope (where the rear ocular lens is) is forward and clear of the loading/ejection port.  The example in the picture shows a bolt action - ring and base positioning may vary with single shots and lever actions.  Regardless of action type, the scope should be mounted a close to the axis of the bore as possible and forward, and totally clear, of the loading/ejection port for most action types, stock comb being taken into account, of course.  Having part of the scope hovering over the ejection port defeats one of the advantages of the forward-mounted scope.  The scope rings in this example require a screwdriver (or a coin) in order to remove and reinstall the scope.  A system which requires no tools for removal and re-installation would be ideal.

For those wishing to install a forward-mounted scope, the XS Clifton Scout Scope Mount is probably the easiest and most expeditious method of doing so. The mount is machined from a solid piece of aluminum and the design neatly eliminates the remote, yet potential, issues associated with barrel expansion and contraction associated with the type of mounts shown in the picture above.  (However, note that the rifle in the picture above has had hundreds of rounds fired through it with scope attached with no issues.)  One thing I learned, having mounted a couple of dozen or so of these XS Scout mounts, is that a high-quality adhesive must be utilized.  I recommend using Magnobond 6398 A/B or equivalent, but at about $80/pint, it is a bit expensive.  A much more affordable alternative, and one that I haven’t yet had a failure with, is good old JB Weld.  Acraglas Gel has worked well too.  The other adhesives I've tried - the ones most commonly available in stores - including West Systems epoxy - have all failed at one point or another.  Most hardware store epoxy adhesives work OK until enough shots are fired within a compressed enough time frame that the barrel gets hot and then they soften and lose their bond.  With a hot barrel, all but the best (high-temp) adhesives have a tendency to lose their bond.
 
Key points to remember when mounting a Scout scope:
> Reliability and ruggedness are paramount.
> Mount the scope as close to the axis of the bore as possible - the gap between top of receiver and bottom of aft scope bell should be minimal.
> Mounts should be positioned to allow the rear most part of the scope to be clear (forward) of the cartridge loading/ejection port. NOTE: This can't be applied to variable power Scout scopes - excepting the Burris 2-7 - as the aft scope bell will more than likely have to hang over the port due to unsatisfactory eye relief.
> The bases and rings must be in precise alignment.
> The ring/base combination should be quickly removable without tools and return the scope to zero after removal and re-installation.

In closing, it should be noted that the Scout scope is to be used with both eyes open!  This, in order to realize the "binocular effect" and other advantages.  It's surprising how many people, who should know better, attempt to shoot a Scout scope with the non-looking-through-the-scope eye closed!  Incredible.  With the Scout scope utilized with both eyes open, field of view is really irrelevant for all practical purposes for, when used properly, the tracking eye (left eye if right handed and not left eye dominate) tracks the target and the shooting eye picks up the "light pencil" as the scope/rifle is brought to bear, the binocular effect kicks in, and the crosshairs become "magically" superimposed on the target while peripheral vision and field of view remain virtually unlimited.  Closing the non scope eye negates this.  To get the binocular effect to become almost instantaneous and second nature does take some practice - for some, a few rounds, for others (like me), a bunch of rounds. However, once things "click" it amazing how well it works!  Unfortunately, some people, for whatever reason, never do get the hang of the Scout scope, the binocular effect/superimposition doesn't happen, and they have a difficult time with a forward mounted scope.  For them, a low power, compact and lightweight conventional scope would be the way to go.   

CB

[Cousin Bongo]

The Scout scope works well because the further the scope is from the shooter's face, the less things are blocked which results in better general and peripheral vision.  For an idea of how this works, close your non-shooting eye and hold a penny, nickel, dime or quarter in front of your shooting eye at normal conventional scope eye relief distance (about 3 inches) and see how much it blocks.  Then, move the coin away from your face out to where a Scout scope would be mounted (about 10 inches) and see the difference.  Now, visualize the solid parts of the scope (scope tube, adjustment turrets, scope rings, etc.) in close to the eye at conventional scope distance versus the same being out farther away from the eye at Scout scope distance.  There is lots less blockage of things the farther away from the face things get.  Now, with the coin at Scout scope distance, open both eyes - the Scout scope is meant to be shot with both eyes open - and see the peripheral field surrounding the coin.  This greater vision allowance/less blockage of the landscape of the Scout scope setup is what allows for better peripheral vision and is why the field of view so many ill-informed detractors are fond of citing is really a non-factor.  When a right handed shooter "tracks left, shoots right" (tracks the target with the left eye, shoots with the right eye when the crosshairs are on the target) field of view is a non-issue as the "binocular effect" kicks in and the crosshairs "magically" become superimposed on the target while one's peripheral field of view remains virtually unlimited.   

CB

"Because it is inconvenient to mount an intermediate eye relief (IER) telescope forward of the magazine well on a bolt-action rifle, we are often asked why one would want to - since the operation is complicated.

Answers. (1) A glass placed 12" or more from the eye subtends far less of the landscape than one closer, and thus enables the shooter to pick up his target more quickly and easily without obscuring his own view. (2) A glass placed forward of the magazine greatly facilitates the 'shoot-one, load-one' technique which we have found so useful in multiple-target situations. (3) The forward mounted glass makes it much easier to carry the rifle in one hand during violent exercise.

Do not let gunsmiths who do not understand the problem discourage you from seeking the right answer."     Jeff Cooper - August 1982

[Cousin Bongo]

"The Scoutscope is a luxury for those who understand it. Compact and unobtrusive, it rides snugly down on the barrel and just forward of the action. It facilitates loading and handling, and it eliminates 'Kaibab eye.' It is distinctly faster to use than the short-eye-relief telescope sights in general use, and it sacrifices nothing in the way of precision. ('If I can see it, I can hit it.' It does not matter how big it seems.)"

Jeff Cooper’s Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 4, No. 10    September 1996

[Cousin Bongo]

"In discussing telescope sights with both Kahles and Swarovski, we note that the proper technique of the telescope sight is not widely understood. The binocular use of the instrument ('track with the left, shoot with the right') is not any great advantage in slow fire, and practically all rifle shooting is slow fire. Those who have been to school, however, understand that the quick shot with the rifle is a skill readily acquired, and tremendously satisfying to the shooter, regardless how seldom he may use it in the field. In that regard, note that if you are conspicuously left-eye-dominant you can overcome this by placing a 10mm spot of masking tape in the center of the lens of your left shooting glass for training and practice. Daughter Lindy discovered this on her own, but I had not known about it during Gunsite Orange days, and it is not in the book."
Jeff Cooper’s Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 7, No. 7     June 1999


"There has been some discussion about the optimal width of the cross wires in Leupold's excellent scoutscope. I have considered this matter for some time, both on the range and in the field, and I conclude that the fine cross wire is slightly superior for paper, whereas the coarser cross wire is superior for blood. Now, after three years and many scores of hunters, Danie van Graan has reached the same conclusion.

The question, of course, is whether you consider your rifles to be tools or toys. Most people shoot far more at paper targets than at live game. If your purpose is simply to play around on the shooting range, it may be that the fine cross wires are indeed superior. The difference is very slight in either direction, in any case."
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 9, No. 6           June, 2001

[Cousin Bongo]

" ‘The scoutscope doth not a scout rifle make.’ The first time I used what has been referred to as Scout I down in Central America, it had only the ghost-ring setup, and no telescope at all. The current notion that no rifle is of any consequence unless it has a glass sight on top probably does well for optical companies, but it ain't necessarily so. I started using telescope sights in my teens, way back in the Middle Ages. This caused considerable comment and astonishment when I showed up in the Rocky Mountains with that doodad on my Remington 30S. I have used telescope sights ever since, and they do make shooting a little easier, but they are only really necessary under specialized circumstances; and in some cases they are a positive hazard.

 The scoutscope is indeed handy on a scout rifle, but the scout rifle is a conglomeration of characteristics of which its sighting system is just one. The principle virtues of the scout are compactness, light weight and handiness. The scoutscope is faster than a conventional glass in snapshooting, but I discover that a good many hunters go their entire career without ever having to attempt a snapshot.

 The fact is that a properly designed and mounted scoutscope is handy, but tying one onto a conventional rifle does not give you a scout rifle. I wish people who do not understand the concept would quit trying to fabricate and sell pieces they do not understand - but that, of course, is too much to expect.”

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 5, No. 3          March 1997

[Cousin Bongo]

"We note from perusing the gun magazines that a great many people do not understand the technique of the telescope sight. [This certainly has not changed! - CB] This applies mostly to the rapid use of the weapon, since even the ignorant can use a telescope from a bench rest. The correct system requires the mounting of the piece so that when the butt hits the shoulder and the cheek hits the comb, the eye is automatically in line with the optical axis of the instrument. You do not hunt around, you practice until when you mount the piece with both eyes shut, you open them to find yourself right on target. This calls for a little practice, but it is not mysterious nor difficult. When you understand it, you can hit that flying clay bird, or, more dramatically, the wishbone of that charging leopard. It is true that snapshooting is the exception rather than the rule in the field, but it is very comforting, as with a seat belt or a life jacket. You do not need it often, but when you need it, you really need it."

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 7, No. 9           August, 1999

"A gun is like a parachute - if you need one and don't have one, you'll never need one again."
Anonymous 

[Cousin Bongo]

"Much as we try, we do not seem to be able to spread the word to the extent that we might wish. Consider the proper use of the telescope sight, which remains obscure, if we believe what we read in the sporting magazines. It is a common belief that the telescope sight is essentially slower than iron sights. The reverse is true, but this is not properly understood because rifle shooting as practiced today is essentially slow-fire, and unless one is properly educated in the matter he will have no way of finding out about quick shooting. Certainly the need to shoot quickly with a rifle is rare, but it does exist. I think one reason why we do not see more snapshooting in the woods is that most people do not know how to do it and therefore do not try.

We have been teaching the binocular snapshot here at Gunsite for many years, and the results in the field, demonstrated by Gunsite graduates, are incontrovertible. I treat this subject in some detail in 'The Art of the Rifle,' but astonishing as it may seem, there are riflemen who have not read that book. I was addressed by such a one just recently who offered to show me how to mount open sights on top of the telescope tube, thus permitting a quick shot under circumstances where the telescope was "too slow." By interesting coincidence, I was shown a similar setup about 35 years ago by a correspondent from Sweden. At that time I had not worked out the binocular snapshot technique on my own, so I investigated the Swedish suggestion and discovered its flaws, which result from the impossibility of focusing in and out at the same time. As all Gunsite grads know, you track with your left and shoot with your right. This does not come naturally, but it can be learned rather quickly once its principles are understood.

The scoutscope is now available. It is particularly well suited for the snapshot, yet it loses nothing that I can detect in slow-fire. I guess this answer is too easy."

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 9, No. 9           September, 2001

[Cousin Bongo]

“We wish that people would stop referring to any rifle with an intermediate mounted scope on it as a ‘scout rifle,’ but we have no control over the whimsies of the unenlightened."

Jeff Cooper’s Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 6, No. 3    March 1998

[Cousin Bongo]

“In discussing Scout construction with Brent Clifton I discover that great attention must be given to the precise alignment of front and rear telescope rings. If these are not exactly coaxial, unwarranted stress will be exerted upon the tube when the weapon is fired and the barrel and action flex in relation to each other.”

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 1, No. 3           1 July 1993


One of the advantages of utilizing the XS Clifton Scout Scope Mount (I like to use my modified version) is that it keeps the rings in precise alignment and pretty much eliminates the barrel/action flex bearing upon the rings and scope tube.

CB

[Cousin Bongo]

Peter Kokalis in his excellent article 308 GUNSITE SCOUT World’s Finest Custom-Made Medium-Game Rifle in the March 1994 issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, addressed the Scout scope thus: 

“Cooper argued the case for a low-powered, long-eye-relief scope with great conviction.  He was convinced that it permitted the shooter to see both the entire area in front of him as well as the cross hairs printed on the target – as long as the scope’s magnification remained under 'three' power to prevent a great disparity between the view perceived by each of the two eyes.

He also argued that it permitted low mounting.  This is important since a peep-aperture 'ghost ring' rear emergency sight is another key ingredient in the scout rifle concept.  Keeping the scope’s line of sight as close as possible to that of the iron sights is important because it permits the buttstock’s comb to provide a proper cheek-weld with either sight.

The location for the scope also permits stripper clip loading, if desired, and more important, facilitates single-loading while the eyes remain on the muzzle and target, with the firearm in the outdoor ready position.”

CB

[Cousin Bongo]

"...we set up the Swiss qualification course which calls for 300 meters and the Swiss government target, of which I have a small supply. To my considerable satisfaction daughter Lindy fired a 'Swiss possible' with her Springfield pseudo-Scout, shooting from sitting with a set of buffalo sticks that I whittled out personally way back in the Dark Ages before the fall. The thing that tickled me was that Lindy was shooting with the scoutscope against an SSG and a Remington 700 bull-gun, both of which were fitted with target scopes. Those misguided souls who insist that the Scout rifle is simply a brush gun have clearly never met one in action."
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 3, No. 14          November, 1995

[Cousin Bongo]

28 March 2016 - Contacted Leupold's Tech Support regarding the latest version of the Leupold Riflescope Owner’s Handbook and the omission of the warning “NOTE: Use care in mounting the 2.5x28mm Scout riflescope. It is necessary to place the back edge of the rearmost ring at least 3/4" forward of the ocular bell/tube juncture to avoid possible reticle damage. Because of the longer eye relief of this product, mounting the scope back slightly will not in any way impair its function or effectiveness.” 

Per the Leupold's Technical Department rep:

"The warning does not apply to current model Scout Scopes."

There you have it straight from the manufacturer. 

I have revised things accordingly.

CB

[Cousin Bongo]

"While we are satisfied that the intermediate-eye-relief (IER) telescope sight is a vast improvement on any general purpose rifle, we must admit that it is no appreciable help in slow fire. In shooting from a hochsitz, or hunting mountain sheep, or hunting antelope on the plains, the snapshot is simply not involved. To disregard the snapshot, however, is to neglect one's repertoire. I have seen the snapshot used with splendid effect five times in the field, and snapshooting with a short-eye-relief telescope is unnecessarily difficult. For this reason the Scout Rifle, which is emphatically a general purpose rifle, must normally carry an IER glass."
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 2, No. 10          11 August 1994

[Cousin Bongo]

"Because it is inconvenient to mount an intermediate eye relief (IER) telescope forward of the magazine well on a bolt-action rifle, we are often asked why one would want to - since the operation is complicated.

Answers. (1) A glass placed 12" or more from the eye subtends far less of the landscape than one closer, and thus enables the shooter to pick up his target more quickly and easily without obscuring his own view. (2) A glass placed forward of the magazine greatly facilitates the 'shoot-one, load-one' technique which we have found so useful in multiple-target situations. (3) The forward mounted glass makes it much easier to carry the rifle in one hand during violent exercise.

Do not let gunsmiths who do not understand the problem discourage you from seeking the right answer."     (Jeff Cooper - August 1982)

[Cousin Bongo]

"We have been touting the forward mounted telescope for years, but it appears that no shooter really understands its worth until he tries his deer rifle on clays pigeons."[/b]
Jeff Cooper

"The 10" eye-relief glass should be mounted so that the ocular lens is flush with the rear of the receiver ring, [it was later found that slightly forward is to be preferred - CB] just ahead of the feed way, as low as the diameter of the lens will permit. Such a glass, so mounted, with a corse cross-hair reticle, is the fastest know sight arrangement - and it has no optical drawbacks. It is strong yet unobtrusive, it does not blank out the shooter's peripheral vision, it encourages binocular target acquisition, and it facilitates gripping the piece at the balance during violent action, as well as eyes-off single-loading in the shoot-one, load-one exercise." (Jeff Cooper 1989)

CB