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Author Topic: Short Rifles  (Read 9226 times)
takezo
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« on: February 18, 2012, 01:09:53 PM »

Short Rifles mainly because only one of these may lay claim to the Scout title.  From the top:

Persian Mauser Carbine in 8 X 57 sporterized circa 1964 by my father.  Not his first one in this format.  The first was a Type 44 Arisaka in 6.5 X 50 sporterized circa 1954 that he eventually sold - never was able to forgive him for that.  I think the Persian was his need to fill the loss of the Arisaka.  Based on the above I have concluded that the desire for short, handy bolt guns is a deep seated desire in all Marines.  I owe a debt of gratitude to my father for instilling that in me early on, and the Colonel for eventually formalizing the concept.

Second one down is the ubiquitous Mini-14, sans scope (have more short rifles than scopes at the moment).

Third one is an 1938 Obendorf Mauser I picked up from Big5 after reading the Colonel's writings concerning forward mounted scopes and the Scout Rifle concept.  My version of a P Scout (P for peasant model, circa 1998).  I shortened and re-crowned the barrel; modified the bayonet lug; and made a scope mount utilizing the original Mauser rear sight mount.  The rings are Leupold QR whatever - not as good as the QRW's.  Like a fool I only bought one of these from Big5 as the pre-war 98k's put to shame most modern produced rifles.  The attached 50 and 100 yard group pictures are an indication of what can be achieved after a little tinkering around with a rifle seven years older than the tinkerer.

Fourth is a Marlin in 45-70.  Wouldn't have bought this one had I known Remington purchased Marlin.  I'll keep it and clean up the Remington inspired cheese ball cost cutting measures because I like 45-70's and the Guide Gun concept.

Fifth is a CZ550FS in 9.3 X 62, and gets my vote for an off the shelf Super Scout.  I may eventually take the time to figure out a forward base to mount a Scout scope on it.  I have an N.E.C.G. rear peep sight that attaches to the CZ rear mount that would make an ideal combination with a Scout scope in my opinion.

Sixth one speaks for itself.  Hats off to Ruger, even though they are about twenty years late.



« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 01:21:08 PM by takezo » Logged
WAARHEID
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 11:13:21 AM »

Fantastic collection! I am a sucker for a short rifle too, even more for a short rifle with a full stock, I know accuracy can suffer in theory, but I'm passionate about the manlicher/stutzen aesthetic. If I ever put together the Mauser M03 left hand stutzen scout in 9.3x62 that I want, I may just retire the rest of my collection:
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Roadie
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 04:18:06 PM »

takezo,

Nice pile of rifles.

Roadie
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I don't think it is so much of a hero worship or quasi-religion thing as the closer you get to the actual specifications of the Scout Rifle the better the dang thing works in the field.
takezo
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 09:20:34 AM »

WAARHEID,

Thanks, and thanks for posting the pictures...what an interesting concept, wish I thought of it.

Mark
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takezo
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 09:29:35 AM »

Thanks Roadie.  I have four others in the works.  Unfortunately, work is getting in the way of more important work.

Mark
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takezo
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 01:29:33 PM »

Added a couple more Short Rifles.

The top rifle is a Swedish Mauser Model 94-14 Carbine with a bubba sporter stock.  Only mod to date is a Timney trigger.  I have a new factory barrel (about 17.7 inches long) and plan to use a Model 96 sight mount sleeve modified to accept a length of rasp rail.  Not to disparage the late Eric Ching's mount system as it has opened up the Scout forward scope concept to many people, it is I just have a personal thing about aluminium and glue on rifles.  I plan on making the necessary mods to the sleeve and Picatinny rail stock and braze them together prior to indexing and soldering the assembly to the new barrel.  I would love to have an original stock set but the only one I found cost more than the rifle.

The bottom one was just pure luck.  Walked into a local GS and there it was.  Chambered in 350 Remington Magnum.  Came with a Leupold reciever dovetail scope mount and plastic parts.  I have since replaced the plastic rib and trigger guard the steel ones, and found a Redfield forward mount on eBay.  Added a Timney trigger and think a Rhodesian Sling would complete this rig.


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Tthe Badger
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 04:01:56 PM »

Sheesh. If you've got it. flaunt it.  Nice collection. The Swede 94 carbine is my favorite "good to go" military mauser.  Wish I had picked one up when they were $120....
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no4mk1t
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 06:32:01 PM »

I've got two Swede 96 rifles and a 96/38 Carbine.
The rifles are hammers. I've won Vintage Bolt Rifle matches twice with one of the rifles. The stock and bolt handle ergos suck, but the rifle shoots the best of any military bolt rifle I've shot. Recoil is mild too.
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nw45
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 08:42:03 PM »

If you want to mount a scout scope on a Mauser, you might be interested to know that the barrel diameter of a military Mauser is the same as that of the Thompson Contender.  This means that a commercial Weaver rail designed for fit the Thompson has the right contour for your Mauser.  All you need to do is remove the rear sight, drill and tap 4 holes, and bolt on the rail.  The result is lower and much more solid than an improvised mount that uses the existing rear sight base.

I took this path on a Swede Mauser a few years back, and am very happy with the results.



« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 08:43:37 PM by nw45 » Logged
03scout
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 06:03:48 AM »

If you want to mount a scout scope on a Mauser, you might be interested to know that the barrel diameter of a military Mauser is the same as that of the Thompson Contender.  This means that a commercial Weaver rail designed for fit the Thompson has the right contour for your Mauser.  All you need to do is remove the rear sight, drill and tap 4 holes, and bolt on the rail.  The result is lower and much more solid than an improvised mount that uses the existing rear sight base.

I took this path on a Swede Mauser a few years back, and am very happy with the results.







Good info! Thanks.

Are pics a possibility?

03
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michaelb
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 09:01:11 PM »


If you want to mount a scout scope on a Mauser, you might be interested to know that the barrel diameter of a military Mauser is the same as that of the Thompson Contender.  


Plus 10!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 08:44:34 AM by michaelb » Logged

"The object of the practical rifleman is the achievement of first-round hits, on appropriate targets, at unknown ranges, from improvised firing positions, against the clock." - Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
takezo
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2015, 06:39:04 PM »

If you want to mount a scout scope on a Mauser, you might be interested to know that the barrel diameter of a military Mauser is the same as that of the Thompson Contender...

I measured a couple of T/C barrels in order to compare them to my Model 94-14 barrels.  The T/C's both miked .809 whereas both Swedes measure .767.  So that may be a rather loose fit.  Don't know if there are other T/C barrels diameters that would work out.  Additionally, I checked a couple of Mauser 98 barrels and think the T/C rail may suffice with careful control of the tap drill depth.

I am doing the drill and tap routine on a re-barreled VZ-24 but wanted to try something different and still end up with a solid mount.

As an aside to all of this, and just a point of information, Walther list a number of barrels with military contours to fit the various Mauser models.  The price is a little steep but they offer a number of calibers.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 06:41:28 PM by takezo » Logged
nw45
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2015, 11:15:59 PM »

I dug out the Swede pseudo-scout to check the fit of the T/C rail.  If anything, it looks like the rail diameter is slightly smaller than that of the Mauser barrel.  The join is tight at the edges but has a slight gap in the middle.  I suppose it's possible the gunsmith put a new radius on the underside of the rail and didn't tell me about it.  The guy was semi-retired, and tended to do things on his own recognizance without consulting me.

At the time I built the rifle (ca 1999), the "Thompson rail fits military Mausers" bit of information was fairly common on the internet.  It seemed to work on my rifle, so I never questioned the notion, or looked at it closely until now.

Here are some photos.  The barrel-to-rail join was hard to photograph with my cheap camera, and the glossy barrel didn't help.







The rifle was built on a sporterized Swede Mauser carbine.  Generic Thompson rail from Brownells.  Ashley Outdoors (now XS) rear sight, with extra tall Swede Mauser blade in original front sight base.  Bell & Carlson Carbelite stock.  Timney trigger.  Buehler safety.  Vintage 1999 Andy Langlois sling.  The paracord wraps are to keep the sling from rattling against the swivel loops.  The gunsmith converted the floor plate to a hinged model, and narrowed the trigger guard.  He also gave the barrel and receiver a mirror polish, which I did not ask for, but didn't have the heart to make him bead blast.  (These days I ask a lot more questions up front, and am less tolerate of unasked-for changes.)  Weight is a hefty 8 lbs.

Clearance between scope bell and receiver ring is a bit over 1/8".  I originally had lower rings on it, but the scope actually touched the receiver.  I could probably get a better fit by experimenting with a different brand of ring, but I rarely use this rifle so it's not a priority.  Also, I just noticed that the rear scope ring is too far back.

The sharp eyed observer will notice that the safety lever is missing.  The screw holding it on had become stripped and fell off during a hunt.  It is destined to be replaced with a Mauser wing safety.

If I were going to do it again I'd leave the original safety and 2-stage trigger alone.  I'd also pick a different stock.  The B&C fore end flexes with sling pressure, and the stock feels bulky around the wrist.  I'd also go with a 20" barrel.  The Swede seems to lose a lot of velocity in a 16 1/2" barrel.  While the Thompson rail works well, I think the rifle would be a lot closer to the mark with a light, thin barrel and a different scope mount.  A bone stock Ruger Ultralight or Hawkeye Compact with a conventional scope feels a lot more scout-like than this Swede.









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03scout
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 12:18:18 AM »

Thanks a bunch for the pic NW. Nice looking rifle.

I'm building my son one similar to yours. There is a thread in the p-scout section.
 I cut his at 19.5" and am glad I didn't go shorter. I used a Ruger GSR rear sight and a Williams ramp front. It also has a Bell and Carlson Carbelite and i don't care for the fat grip either. The comb is a little high for me but my son is thinner faced and it fits him well so that's what's important I guess.
This one has a Timney trigger so the safety is on the side. If it was mine I'd put the military trigger and safety back I think.
I like your hinged floorplate conversion also.
I will probably stick with the XS rail as I already have it. The rifle is waiting for finish now. He wants it parkerized.

Again, thank you for the info and pics.


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'Cause if you lose your head and you give up you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.
     Josie Wales
takezo
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 08:25:49 AM »

....If anything, it looks like the rail diameter is slightly smaller than that of the Mauser barrel.  The join is tight at the edges but has a slight gap in the middle.  I suppose it's possible the gunsmith put a new radius on the underside of the rail and didn't tell me about it.  The guy was semi-retired, and tended to do things on his own recognizance without consulting me...

Thanks for posting that as it may clear up the diameter issue.  If I had to guess your gunsmith was used to being told what the desired end result was and made his own way getting there.  I knew one like that but he was very patient and methodical in explaining all the whys and wherefores.  Definitely the best engineer/gunsmith/barrel maker (and much, much more) I have ever come across.

According to 'The Swedish Mauser Rifles' by Kehaya and Poyer, that area of the barrel diameter varies from .769 to .798 across the various models.  I only have the two Model 94 samples so I can't comment on Model 96 or 38 barrels.
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